How to Create Better Relationships with Business Partners - Featuring Ryan Allen

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Owning a business is a challenge. Knowing how to keep innovating in your business is an even bigger one. Join restaurant owner, motivational speaker, and innovation expert Sara Frasca each week as she guides fellow business owners in taking the next step to level up their business. If you've ever pondered hiring a business coach but want a sample first, come along for the adventure!

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Sara Frasca is the founder and owner of Trasca & Co Eatery in Ponte Vedra Beach, Florida, an experienced and engaging motivational speaker, and the CEO of global business coaching firm Point NorthEast.

Transcript

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You're listening to level up your business, the podcast where we talk to hardworking business owners and leaders and help them solve real issues in real time. I'm your host, Sarah Frasca restaurant owner, keynote speaker and business coach. I've spent my career not only in corporate America but also as an entrepreneur, carrying on my family's legacy through my restaurant. Now a business coach and consultant. I'm helping other businesses to use creative problem solving and innovative thinking to drive lasting change. Stay tuned to hear some inspiring guidance that will help you to level up your business. And here we are. Well, Brian Allen from random is joining us today on the level up your business podcast. I'm Sarah Frasca. Ryan, thank you, again for being willing to join us. You're very welcome. So you're coming to us from Detroit, Michigan. This is correct. Just to give the listeners kind of a position in their kind of mental map of where you are in the world. So how's the weather up there today? So it's a beautiful day, it's like upper 70s. Sunny, can't beat can't complain? That's awesome. Okay, down to brass tacks favorite tortured poets department song. Oh, I normally would not have an answer to this. But however, I do have an answer. Hey, let's go is the song Clara Bow? Oh, okay. Excellent. I've not listened to that one as much. But now I will be attuned to it. There's a lot of songs on this album. And so I don't blame you for not getting there. Potentially. It's later in the album. I'm kind of focused on the first few. All right. But in all honesty, let's start out with just a little bit of an intro. I mean, I know you well, just because you're a part of our teams, and I mean, multiple teams. And today, I really wanted to focus on how business leaders can better use their partners. And so you know, you're coming from random, a marketing agency out of Detroit, one that I love and have used now for years and you know, you're a part of several of the different businesses that I'm a part of, as well. So point northeast, obviously and Trask a business and then also the kind of Sarah Frasca speaking business. So can you tee up for us a little bit of your background? And how did you get to this spot and this business and what you're doing? Yeah, no problem. So I have a pretty unconventional career path. You know, I went to school, I went to college for journalism. After school, I started writing for different entertainment based magazines in Detroit. And decided that I would, instead of working a full time job, I would rather be in a rock and roll band and go on tour. And so I spent many years touring in a band. But that is a tough thing to sustain. So once I realized that being broke, was challenging, I got myself back into a career path that made a little bit more sense to me. So had some different kinds of jobs. Some are like training, you know, specific, I worked at the Apple Store as a trainer for for a good part of my career, and then transitioned into marketing. So worked with one of our co founders, John Patterson, at an agency, and, you know, definitely collect with him. Worked at that agency for about a year. And then I worked in franchising for about eight years, I worked for goldfish swim school, on the marketing team. And my job, kind of, you know, it's very Kismet with the subject matter of this podcast was to manage different digital marketing vendors. So I'm very passionate about the relationship that vendors and businesses have. And so, you know, I know we'll get into that more in a bit. But after working for a goldfish for your I transition, or for eight years, rather, I transitioned into real estate management, which are marketing rather, I should say, which is a whole other, you know, ball of wax to kind of wrap my head around, and then felt the pull back to wanting to be at an agency again. So I've been at random now for about a year. I'm the Marketing Director. My role is kind of a little bit of everything from managing the team, to managing you know, relationships, such as the one we have with you and your businesses, Sara. And, you know, I just love working here. It's a really amazing culture. Super, you know, lucky and proud to be a part of the brand had a team and also to be a part of the Center for Aska universe as well. Oh, I don't know if it's as big as the universe, but thank you. That's, that's kind, we sure are happy you guys are a part of it. Okay, so, you know, I think that leads us into the question of I mean, what do you, because you've been on both the client side and the agency side, I mean, what makes the magic of a well orchestrated relationship? Well, there's a lot of ingredients to it, as you probably can guess, you know, the, the first one that comes to mind, to me is trying to find a vendor that you really feel like there's a potential for a true partnership, partnership gets thrown around, I think as a, as a word as a concept, quite often these days, but sometimes doesn't always come to fruition. And so to really get to a point where partnership is, you know, a back and forth, it's collaborative, you know, it's respectful, you have to ask the right questions, you have to, you know, make sure that they're like checking off your, you know, cultural boxes, so to speak, and make sure that, you know, they are committed to the same goals, that you are, you know, attempting to communicate to them, it's a lot easier said than done. But that certainly is kind of the first place, I would say, most businesses should start is, you know, really having an internal, almost like cultural like Foundation, where, you know, if this partner, or this potential vendor isn't, you know, checking those cultural boxes, we need to move on, from that partnership, or we need to make sure as we're searching, that we use that as our barometer, to, you know, continue with with a relationship or start a new relationship. So that would be number one. Number two, probably no surprises, communication, communication, when it comes to partnership is vital. I'll use you know, your team, as a great example, Sarah, you know, James, on your team is really a great communicator, he has no problem hopping on the phone, you know, whether it's phone, text, message, email, you know, using different tools to communicate, the dedication to communication is so important. And, you know, it's not just like, text messages or, you know, emails back and forth, it's the substance of the communication, the respect for the individuals involved, is also incredibly important, you know, everybody's busy, everybody's got a million things going on at once, you know, and so, being respectful of of that, I think, is really, really key, you know, asking questions, like, you know, and this, again, it's a partnership, right, so us as the vendor, you know, we need to be asking questions like, when do you need it by, you know, really making sure that the expectations are communicated and understood, in order for people to feel a, that the vendor or the client, you know, cares about getting it done on time, and making sure that you meet your deadlines, and be, you know, making sure that it fits into the priority list. So communication is, is incredibly, incredibly important. And then I guess the third thing is organization, you know, making sure that there's a structure, there's some kind of, you know, tool or, or philosophy or whatever gets applied, that holds people accountable. So nobody feels let down. Partnerships tend to fail when people feel like they're asking, you know, for assistance with something, insight, whatever it is, and, you know, if that if that continues to fall through the cracks, it's going to affect the trust in the relationship between those two parties. And without organization and organizational, you know, approach or aesthetic being applied to the partnership, things can get out of hand really, really quickly and easily. So that's, you know, a great example is having a weekly meeting, you know, where there's, you know, the the ability to touch base and, you know, add clarity to what's going on, it could be, you know, a simple, you know, tool like, you know, we use something called 90 to keep ourselves organized and on track. So, you know, I think those three pillars really set a very solid foundation to make sure that that partnership is strong, and that everybody's kind of to steal a line from you, you know, moving up into the right instead of the opposite to right Question. That's great. Thank you, Ryan. That is a is a trademarked tagline. So I'll send you an invoice. Yeah, that's fine. Okay. All right. I'm teasing you. Alright, somebody else? I'll have somebody else pay for it. Okay, well, okay, so the reason for, you know, this topic, in my opinion, I would say a lot of our point ne clients have partners, they have vendors, or they have people in their midst, that are doing their accounting, or their, you know, tax work, or their marketing work or whatever else. And so, you know, I find that it's not always built of the same type of partnership that I like to have, which again, you know, we have a really solid one built on a lot of the things that you talked about. And so I want them listening, I want I want these clients listening for the cues of what am I doing right with the people who are doing a part of my business who are doing work on behalf of my brand, or are, you know, interacting with my people, because a good partnership versus a kind of stomped upon vendor can create a very different work product. And just to hover on that for a moment, you know, I have been on the agency side, in fact, I would say I'm on the agency side, right now. With point northeast, we serve clients, we are a service based organization, if we are not serving, we fall flat on our noses, right. I mean, we have to serve first, I also have been on the client side. And again, I'm on the client side right now. But I would say I learned the client side at General Mills all those years ago. And I got to see what it is like when someone really empowers their partners, versus stomps on their vendors. And again, I use those two words as a really good kind of comparison of the thought process, in my opinion, of leveraging outside talent outside help you're, you're bringing people in to be a part of your world, and you can treat them like dirt, or you can treat them like respected work product partners. So talk a little bit about if you don't mind, maybe I've examples. And I certainly don't need names, but some maybe examples of how that comes to life? Absolutely. So I kind of put this concept in two categories, there's sort of the philosophical side of it, and then there's the more like tactical, you know, like, what are we actually doing side of it. So I'll talk about the philosophical side first, it really comes down to empathy. You know, I know that word is also thrown around a lot. But truly having empathy, both parties, having empathy for one another, is so incredibly important. It's it's one of randoms core values. And fact, is to, and, you know, we take partnership extremely seriously. But you can't get there, if you don't have empathy for the, the entity that you're working alongside of, and with. And it's a lot easier said than done. But you can get to that empathetic place, through transparent communication again, you know, you can get to that empathetic place, through, you know, spending a little bit of time trying to understand the processes, that the other side, you know, of the of the relationship needs to go through to get, you know, your deliverable delivered to you. You know, there are some times where it'd be great if, you know, a vendor was able to just kind of, you know, sidestep a few steps or processes along the way to get, you know, the client what they need quicker, but the end result might not be as good because it's not being funneled through the process that it needs to be funneled through in order for the end product to be, you know, as close to being perfect, which we know is never a possibility, but it's close to being, you know, I guess approved by the client, I suppose, as you can as you can get it. So, you know, explaining what those processes are and making sure that the partner that you're working with understands, you know, you don't need to give them every single detail. But it helps to understand and helps again to empathize with one another, when you have some understanding of what it takes to get to the end product or what it takes to, you know, get to where you're trying to go together. So I think that's hugely important and you know, that comes that that is something that I don't know if it can be completely and totally taught. Of course, it can be, you know, communicated in turn Only and, you know, the culture can be sort of set up that way, but it almost takes like, the individuals, you know, involve, to really, you know, peel back the veil a little bit, and I don't need to know everything about you, for example, Sara and your life, but I do know that your mom, you know, I do know that you, you have multiple businesses, I do know that you're running teams, I do know, you know, that there's factors involved. So I take those things into consideration, you know, when, you know, you might be owing me something, you know, and hopefully, those the same, you know, is done on the client side, you know, so, so, without kind of babbling on and on about that, I really, truly think that relationship building, you know, having, again, some opportunities to talk about process to get to know your client or your or your vendor, a little bit. And, you know, we don't need to be best friends. But we should get to a point where there's a mutual respect and understanding. So if something does come up, you know, if somebody's kid, you know, get sick or something like that, like there's, there's a level of empathy that can be deployed. So it's like, okay, I get it, you know, like you, this was unexpected. And, you know, but that's just bumped the deadline, you know, to a time that makes sense, because you have to take care of something in your personal life. So good. That's, that's, I think, I would agree. 100%, when do you think a partner does their best work? I think a partner does their best work when they're not micromanaged. But their but their client, or their, the vendor is available to answer questions to give good insight. And again, it kind of comes back to process like, what is the what is the process to, you know, approve content, for example, like, you know, random is a digital marketing agency, we create social media content, we create websites, we run email campaigns, I'm just doing the plug for random here. But, you know, we are a full service digital agency. And so, you know, a lot of the work that we do, you know, is trying to interpret the, the goals and the objectives of our partners. And, you know, we're not necessarily the experts in any of the areas in which we, you know, I mean, of course, we've got, you know, credibility and knowledge, and, you know, whether it's a finance finance related client, or a restaurant or whatever, you know, we have some background in those things. And, of course, you know, want to make sure that people are working on those accounts that do, but if we don't, it really does help if the partner on the other end is available for education is available for answering questions. So that way, we're not making things up, we're not trying to guess, you know, what are they? What do they want? You know, we can just ask, you know, so I think, again, that collaboration, that communication really helps get the best work possible. And it just comes down to the willingness to be available to demystify or add clarity, to whatever is being worked on, because that's where I think a lot of, of these relationships start to really fall is when there's no clarity, there's no direction, it's super confusing, you know, so the more clarity and the more you know, just straightforward, which is not always a skill of mine, but a straightforward communication of this is what we're looking for. This is what we need. This is when we need a buy. And then you know, reciprocated, okay, we this makes sense. We understand or, Hey, I don't understand. Let me check for understanding. Now. We're now we're dancing. Right? Yeah, like, right, and now it's less of a like, you do this for me. Here's like, three words that you have to sort of, like, build your whole strategy on, you know, now we're now you know, now we're, we're, we're ballroom dancing. You know, we're we're in that partnership, in a really solid way. Yeah, no, that's great. I like the analogy of dancing. I also have used, like, if you're in a volleyball match, and you're thinking of like, Oh, I'm passing it over to you. And now Now you're putting it back over. It's not very, it's clunky. It's just it's not orchestrated versus dancing or rowing in the same direction. I mean, now we're actually a team moving together. So yeah, I agree with that. You know, I was going to just comment on the micromanaging for a moment because I do find that clients are so controlling or they're so nervous. They're frightful, that someone will not take their business and hold it that you know, kind of in a sacred weight tected and care for it and all of those sorts of things. So sometimes it does take a moment. But I remember back to my General Mills days, and I used to call this moving the blueberry because I was working at the time for Pillsbury, and we had blueberry muffins. And I remember I was doing the photo shoot. And the person that was involved in the photo shoot was literally, you know, saying, Oh, we have to reshoot it, we have to move the blueberry, you know, it has to go over a little bit, was like, Oh, my word. And so I think that it was a very valuable lesson for me this moving the blueberry philosophy was, is it actually making a substantial enough difference to annoy everybody else on the project. And so it's a little bit more of this, like, here's what I'm going for. I want a delicious, warm, hot, beautiful blueberry muffin. And at that point, you are actually inspiring the team, you're bringing the creatives in so that they can be a part of this mission and goal and vision versus like, Oh, my word. Like, they're nitpicking and micromanaging every single thing, which is just such the reverse, emotional reaction for me, like I can have a visceral reaction to that kind of like teeing it up, and you're the boss, and you're the expert. And let's go get this big mission. Versus, Oh, great. Now I'm, you know, now somebody's telling me, I got to put the word over here and bold that letter and do this and absolutely, yeah, well, we're both parents. So I think of I think of the relationship between client and vendor, as you know, parent child sometimes. And you know, as parents, it can be very challenging, first of all, so, you know, to make the analogy, when you get into a relationship with a vendor, there's risk involved, just in the same way as if you have a child, there is risk involved immediately, you know, even before they're born, there's risk involved. And the nurturing that you do, as a parent is very similar to the nurturing that can be done, when it comes to the relationship between, you know, two businesses that are trying to work together, right. So whether it's client, vendor, vendor client, however you want to, you know, put those in order. But, you know, as a parent, you really need to understand where to interject your parenting, and where to allow the child to discover, grow, you know, maybe make a mistake or two along the way, without being right there to catch every time they fall. And, similarly, you know, when it comes to the relationship between vendors and, and clients, you know, again, like I said, there's, there's risk involved, there's risks involved, because there's a relationship, there's risk involved, because there's, you know, the will obviously, the financial component of it, but there's even risk involved when it comes to word of mouth, you know, I mean, you have a bad experience with a, with a vendor or with a client, you know, those things tend to get around. So there's a lot to nurture and a lot to, like, want to, you know, be mindful of and take care of, but you also have to figure out when it's necessary to really get your hands dirty, and when to allow, in the case of if we're saying, client, allow a vendor to, you know, have some discovery on their own, to, you know, figure out how to best you know, represent the brand. You know, you've got to trust that the credibility that they have you hired them for a reason, you know, is enough to, you know, not feel like you have to get your hands on it to the point where you're actually diluting the creative energy and and juices that go into some of this type of work. Yeah, it's a lot easier said than done, you know, and I empathize with clients who do feel compelled to micromanage you know, and micromanage sometimes, I mean, it's, it's certainly like, a bad word in the in the business world. And, you know, nobody likes to have a boss who micromanages them, you know, no one's gonna, like, if you were like, hey, raise your hand if you'd like to work for somebody who's like intensely, you know, committed to micromanaging everybody, no one would raise their hand. However, two things one I understand and empathize with Clients who feel like they have to, like you kind of said, like, hold, you know, it's like a robin's egg, you know, nests, it's so fragile, you don't want it to break. Because, you know, as a business owner, you know, use COVID as an example, like, that was completely unexpected, and all of a sudden, the world was upside down. And, you know, I know that you as a restaurant, were, were probably feeling that unexpected event super hard. And it's kind of, it's almost like, okay, like, we're in like an emergency situation here. So I need to make sure I know what's going on with every single piece of everything. These vendors that we're working with, you know, they need to be, you know, plugged into what we need to be doing here. So, you know, it's your baby, like, I totally get that, you know, and not to go on and on about it, but I do empathize with it, it's just, you know, really takes in this is kind of like, you know, whether it's done in a formal or informal way, it takes good feedback and good open communication. Gino Wickman, who wrote the EOS book that I know you're familiar with, he calls it truth and bourbon, where, you know, it's like, I'm gonna give you you know, some hard truth here. And I'm not trying to upset you, you might want to take a shot of bourbon to hear, but the idea is that like, okay, like, this might be hard to hear, but I need to communicate it with you and give you feedback about this. So we can, you know, get on the same page and this and so if that is like, I want to, as the vendor want to make sure that you trust me, here are the ways that that can work. Right, you know, and vice versa. Like, if in order for me as the client to trust you, I need you to do these things. Right. So like I said, easier said than done, but but it can, it can work. And it can happen with good communication. Yeah, no, that's great. I mean, little things to kind of add up to building that trust. And I'm just going to bring this, you know, as as an example, because too often I find that our clients are not doing good behavior on this. So I try to coach them in the background. But, you know, if if I had my phone, and you didn't know that I was paying attention to you, you now have lost trust in me, like, what is she doing, it's so important that she's not paying attention, or, you know, something else must be more important than me. And I think that's a two way street, both the client and the partner, you know, the agency both need to be completely mindful, completely distracted, and kind of in the zone, in order for each to feel the respect and the trust. Another one is just keeping each other in the loop. You talked about communication early on, but I think there's a big trust factor here, where you're, you know, really kind of bringing them in and they become a part of it versus just, oh, now downstream, I'm just going to tell you, I need this. Well, why do you need that and what you know, so there's some trust in that. I think the other thing, again, I'm trying to even just break it down into the micro columns of this being on time, I mean, I remember again, just being a, you know, person waiting in the lobby at a massive organization, you know, and it's like, oh, my gosh, they're two hours late, and I, I'm just gonna keep sitting here until they come and get me and, you know, it's, it's a very disrespectful feeling. I think in that moment of like, wow, I must be so unimportant to them, that they can't even come and get me from the lobby, when they said they would come and get me, you know, things like that. Yeah, I feel like, you know, there's a lot of fear, really kind of, like underlying a lot of these vendor client relationships, fear on both sides. You know, I mean, what am I like not to turn this into a therapy session, but like, one of my biggest, you know, kind of concerns is always I don't want to let anybody down. You know, I don't want to let myself down. I don't want to let my family down. I don't want to let my coworkers down, like, whatever it is, but, but certainly, when it comes to, you know, work and the relationships that, you know, are involved in work in work, working relationships, you know, letting somebody down to me as an individual is probably the worst feeling in the world. And so I think doing those little things, like if you get an email, and it's, you know, asking you a question that you might not have the answer to, in that moment, writing that, you know, individual back and saying, Hey, I'm not exactly sure in This moment what the answer to your question is, but I am going to find out and get back to you at this day, you know, at this time, whatever, going that extra mile and at least acknowledging like, Hey, I have a question. I know you're busy, but you know, it's the classic, like, did you get my email? When you're working in office? Like, did you get my email about whatever it is, and if it's like two days ago, and you never responded, you know, well, I wouldn't blame the person for asking if you got that email, you know, so even if you couldn't get to it right away, just taking a minute or a second, even just acknowledging the person on the other side, the client or the vendor, whatever side of this fence you're on, that goes a long way. And it's those little things that really do add up to to building that trust, like you kind of extra, that's great. I mean, it's it's good behavior. And again, we would teach our kids to do these things. But sometimes when we get into the working day, it can fall by the wayside. And so again, my cautionary tale to everyone is just, if you have a partner relationship, same with an employee, but I would say it's really important to build that trust, and that's done through those little teeny tiny things. It's yeah, it's acknowledgement to I think that's the other thing, like, once a project is completed, you know, this is something that I think you're really, really good at. And something that we try to do at random as well, is really acknowledge the efforts that are being made, you know, you don't have to win an award in order to feel like it's necessary to acknowledge the efforts, you know, we've worked on some projects with you, for example, where, you know, the, the feeling of like, we made something that the person who hired us to make this thing is like, 100% happy with. And we know that because they gave us that feedback, they communicated with that with us, you know, that sense, that sends you into the next project with, you know, good vibes positivity. And, you know, just an inspiration, honestly, to continue to, you know, do your best work. So, so, I think it's really important that vendors and clients, the partnership has an element of feedback and an element of acknowledging the work that went into something in order to mean, make sure that that relationship in that bond is strong. Because eventually, if you don't know how things are going, it's really hard to gauge, not only like, I guess it's hard to gauge what the person wants, at a certain point, like, it becomes more murky. And it's also hard, because you start, like questioning yourself, and in second guessing, and, and that can be a tough place to be mentally. Yeah. So, yeah, acknowledgement and feedback are really imperative. I think, I think that's a really good point. I mean, talk about the fear of failure as a as a, an agency doing work on behalf of clients. I mean, how big does that play a role in your output? Your energy level? I mean, what what does that look like? That's a good question. Because, you know, it depends, I guess, on the culture of the agency, and if, if you're, you know, even in like a phase of the business where you're struggling a bit, you know, maybe to get clients or whatever, that's certainly going to inform that, that fear of failure, because now it's like, urgent, you know, but that aside, I think it's something you have to acknowledge is there and balance, but not let overtake you, you know, you can't, you can't allow that feel of failure, failure to get in the way of trying something new or making a suggestion, because, you know, ultimately, those suggestions are the things that could ignite, you know, an idea or a project or an initiative that changes the business for the better. You know, an example of that is in I mean, I don't know if this is like, common knowledge or something, but like, a franchisee for subway suggested the $5 footlong that was not like a corporate brainstormed, you know, or a marketing agency that brainstormed it. It was a franchisees doing the math and saying, like, we could sell, you know, this sandwich cheaply. It's a great, you know, obviously like marketing angle to it. But, you know, I think this can work and I'm going to take the feel of fear of failure and push it aside and talk to I need to talk to you to make the suggestion and now everybody knows, I mean, that's their whole Marketing, you know? Yeah, for a long time, right. So all that took with somebody speaking up and not being afraid to make a suggestion and, and not being afraid of getting their suggestion, you know, thrown in the garbage and taking, they're shooting their shots, so to speak. So I think, you know, it's very easy to get caught up in that fear of fear, fear of failure mindset. However, it's important to trust your instincts, it's important to lean on your expertise, it's important to ultimately, like use the credibility that you have, again, you know, you were hired for a reason, if you're the vendor. And so, you know, you, you need to kind of, like lean on some of these things in order to not get like, in that dark place. Yeah. But it's, again, it's easier said than done sometimes. Well, and I would say, you know, maybe speaking from the client side, for a minute here, if you instill a fear of failure in your partners, you have handcuffed them, I mean, I would say, you know, the intention of bringing in an outside group, in my opinion, is that you probably don't have the necessarily the resources to be able to have your own marketing team. And so I'll just use the example of, you know, we use random because we can get high level strategic marketing, all the way down to the executional, posting on our social media, managing the content, you know, building the website, those things. So, I mean, for me to do that, for either of my businesses, it's just not an expense that I want to undertake, it would be foolish of me to bring on, you know, three, four people just to do marketing at this stage, nor do you maybe even have the bandwidth for it to manage it. Right. So it's, yeah, there's a lot of factors and to consider and, you know, like, the outside perspective, you know, again, it's, it's a, it's fine line, because the, the vendor doesn't, always isn't always going to be an expert, in whatever, you know, industry, their client is, is is, you know, working in and so, there is this kind of, like, conversation that happens a lot where it's like, you know, we're maybe maybe not the experts in how to run a restaurant, but we are experts in social media, right. So that again, you know, going back to the like, respect concept, yes. Like, I respect that you are the expert in running a restaurant. And so, I may have an idea here and there, and how to, like, improve a process or whatever, but like, you are the expert, you've built that credibility, we're the experts in the content creation, you know, we can certainly, like, offer suggestions to one another, that, you know, can be very helpful. So, you know, you have to have a amount of humbleness and openness in order to really cultivate a good vendor client relationship. And that's on both sides. But it's at least, you know, respect again, to that base level of, hey, you know, you hired us for a reason. Yeah. And we're working with you, or, and we want to work with you for a reason. So there's that base level is established. You know, again, it comes back to the concept, I guess, of like the micromanagement. Yeah, the fear mongering, is also something I've seen done, you know, throughout my career, where you're establishing this, like, if you make a mistake, then your ass is on the line kind of mentality that says, you know, really not a great place for anyone to work in. And a lot of people lean on that, with the idea that if I, if I instill that fear, then they're going to do it, right. And they're going to get it done on time. And they're going to be afraid of my reaction. If it's not done the way that I think it should be. Right. And that never works. You know, it's not sustainable. Unfortunately, you know, there are instances where people do lean into that. And, and you said stomped on early, I've seen that happen, you know, and it's easy to stomp on a vendor. And I And again, like as to having been on the client side, I've been in situations and I've even done the stopping and have felt terrible about it later, because it never helped, you know, it was maybe I was frustrated, and I came at, you know, or I accused or we came at or accused. But now, you know, the the applecart has been upset a little bit. And so you have to be very careful. You When When fear is a fear is a is a, it's, it's a weapon, and it can be weaponized. And it's certainly helps in, like, if you're, you know, fighting a war, I guess, but like that shouldn't that shouldn't be what a vendor client relationship feels like, totally a great, I would say, instilling a fear of failure in your agency or partner does a lot of harm and no good in my opinion. And I think what we are leaning on, outside partners for is to see the industry and, you know, you brought up the example of social media, how in the world could I be an expert on social media? I mean, it is almost changing daily, right? I can know enough to be dangerous, but there's no way that I know what the Google AI algorithm is, I know what the different, I mean, I literally can't even keep up with all the tools. So I am looking for someone to bring that expertise. But if I instill a fear of failure, they're not going to have the ability, or interest to test and learn to bring in, hey, we're seeing people do this, would you be interested in trying this? And so, again, I think, you know, it's really this open. And you use the term humbleness. But I would, I would say, just openness in general to, you're the expert in the things that you're the expert in, tell me what's out there. And what I should be looking at help me know, if there are things that are out there in the world, it might be another industry, it might be another tool that I'm just not attuned to, and how can we kind of fold that in as an idea, we may test and learn it, or we may implement it. But if I say that's the responsibility of the vendor, right to take very seriously, and I think sometimes, whether there's a fear of failure involved or not, coming from the client side, let's say, there might be just an intrinsic feel fear of failure, that it just exists, not based on like something that the client did or said, right. But you got to get over that, you know, you got to get past that, and you have to speak up, and you have to bring those things to your client, in order to continue to cultivate that trust in that relationship. So if you're not, if you're withholding information, if you're not, you know, letting you know, like, for example, we brought like, an option to the restaurant to create, like a scannable. Basically, like a TAP card that's on the tables of the restaurant to submit a Google review, very easily, it helps, you know, build up that credibility for the restaurant, it makes it easy for the the guest to submit a review. Or, you know, another idea was, you know, should we look into E commerce for the merchandise, you know, and of course, there's, you know, and you've been brought up, I'll just use this as a real example. You're like, Yeah, it sounds great. But my concern is fulfillment. You know, my concern is, like, if I have to mail these out, like, what is my process for that? You know, so, but bringing that conversation to the table, having that discussion, you know, it's the responsibility of, in my opinion of the vendor to bring those things to the table. So it isn't just a one sided relationship where the client is thinking, like, I have to continue to ask you to do things or, you know, there needs to be a back and forth there to, you know, earlier analogies, yeah, no, that's great. The dancing. All right. Well, um, Ryan, I mean, thank you. Again, I feel like you have such a balanced perspective, because you've been on both sides of the table. And, you know, I have as well and am currently in the different different roles in different businesses. And I just, I want to thank you for your partnership. I mean, I think it's been just a really lovely, lovely relationship. I obviously adore your owner, who I've worked with in the past. And I love Alison, who is one of our account folks, and I love all of them. But, you know, I just think you have such good hearted, sincerely, wonderful, talented people. And so I just, you know, I really, I credit a lot of our success to the fact that we found you brought you on and I mean, we're all I think having fun doing it. So I agree, it's a lot of fun, and you guys are wonderful to work with and for and, you know, every example and everything that I've said this entire time, you guys are, you know, exemplify all the positive, you know, aspect So what we've talked about, and so I think the the Treska. And point ne teams are great examples of how to truly have a partnership that is organic, and unforced and transparent and authentic. You know, I mean, again, these words get used very freely, you know, we're talking about these things, but it's another thing to, to exemplify it with action. So, you know, I can't say enough good things about you guys. And well, we appreciate being part of the team. Thank you. You forgot to mention that. I'm funny. You are funny. I'm teasing you. All right. Well, Ryan, thank you again, for everything. Thank you for being part of this. And thank you for your partnership. I look forward to many, many moons of further success with you and your team. So thanks for answering these great questions. I hope that some of our clients and some others out there are thinking, Gosh, I couldn't do things in a little bit better way to empower and to really, you know, emblazon the hearts and minds of our partners so that they can do their best work, which ultimately is a win win, right? We're all kind of connected in this. We do better together. All boats will rise. So indeed, Ryan. All right. Have a great day, everybody. Thanks again for being here, Ryan. And, as always, you know, here to help from a point northeast business or just even personally, if I can help someone with their business. I always like to say you're not alone out there. So if you're struggling with something like find someone to ask questions of a mentor or just me so you just call me if you need help. Alright. Have a good day, Ryan. You too. Goodbye. Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode of level up your business with me, Sara Frasca. If you have a problem in your business that's keeping you up at night. Please join us in a future episode so we can help get you unstuck. Just clicking the link in the show notes and send us a message. Please remember, stay innovative friends.